Early Perimenopause with Hannah Daly: Finding Answers and Relief

Today on Menopause Uprisng Podcast my guest is Hannah Daly. this episode I'm chatting early perimenopause with Hannah Daly. Hannah was recently featured in the RTE documentary Lost for Words. She is an Occupational Therapist and author and she opens up about her early perimenopause journey starting at the age of 37. Hannah is multiply neurodivergent (dyslexic, dyspraxic, autistic, ADHDer). She shares her unique perspective and the relief that came with finally getting answers.

To learn more about Hannah click HERE

To purchase Hannah's book click HERE

Transcript -Automatically Generated

One aspect that I'm finding is coming up a lot more in workplaces these days is neurodivergency. And I am really passionate about the fact we need to talk about menopause in all its guises. So while we need to talk about the different types of menopause, it's really important that we also look at the impact it has on people with neurodivergency.

And it's an area that unfortunately we don't have. as much research. We need to do a lot more research, not just in Ireland, but globally. And it's an area that is really important to me. I'm very passionate about it. And I guess I've met so many women over my years in the workplace and socially who are deeply impacted by perimenopause, but also by the added challenge of having a late diagnosis of possibly ADHD, ASD, etc.

So, Hannah, this is brilliant. Very personal to you and has been part of your own journey. So I'd love if you were able to share with our listeners what that journey has been like for you. Yeah, I might go back to when it all, the big bang for me, or the big kind of moment where everything kind of starts to unravel.

So we're talking May, 2023. Um, I'm. At the same time, I was like, I had just published a book, um, I was promoting and I was working privately in clinic and like life was brilliant. It was the first, I had four young kids, but it was the first time I was starting to sleep and, you know, find myself again post children.

Um, And literally one night, um, I just woke with left sided numbness and tachycardia. And my husband came in and he ended up calling an ambulance and we wouldn't be quick to jump. Like we'd be real kind of, we're both healthcare professionals. We're not one to kind of panic, but, um, I was rushed in, I went down the stroke pathway, um, had like CTs.

And then they decided it was probably a migraine, like a really status migraine, Hemiplegic migraine. Um, and they kind of were happy enough, discharged me, sent home, but it continued. Then my GP sent me back in. At that stage, they started looking at like multiple sclerosis. They started looking at melangitis.

I had lumbar punctures done. I had CTs, full blood work done. Um, and eventually they kind of felt it sounded like it was status migraine. Weren't really sure why I was suddenly having This like profound debilitating, um, state and told to like, try things like lifestyle, vitamins, you know, try different nerve blocks, try different migraine prevention meds.

But I was then, as well as the migraines, I was having like joint pains. I was having, um, I was, I was dry retching every morning. Like, you know, I was doing a pregnancy test because like loads of different things just felt so unwell. My hair was falling out. I had rosacea. Um, I had UTIs, I thought I had trush constantly.

I had cold sores in my nose. I was floored. And I thought, okay, it's burnout because obviously with the book and everything, I was too, I was, that's must be what it is. Like research everything about burnout, did some psychotherapy, did acupuncture, did cranial sacral therapy, like all of the things, like true whole heart, I've been vegan for a while.

Um, Cold water swim, tried Wim Hof, ice baths, like you name it. I went a hundred percent in and just could not get better, could not function. Like I got to the stage where, um, I couldn't like get out of bed that my sensory sensitivity. And like, I'd always knew that I had sensory sensitivity, but like I couldn't look at light.

Um, I couldn't tolerate noises. I was so irritable. I was snapping at everyone. I couldn't string a sentence together. Um, My kids would kind of even started picking up on the brain fog because, and that was really scary because I would say like, put this, get into the boot. And I meant into the car and they'd be like, okay, we're going into the boot.

And they think it'd be really funny, but I'd be like, no, no, no. Get into the car. Like I was really at my wits end. Um, and I would be saying things like they would actually turn around to me and be like, mommy, do you mean the boot? Bin or the fridge. So they were even picking up on it. And that was really tough.

Um, and it got like, and again, like went back to the GP and I'm getting the results being told, like, everything is perfect. You couldn't be healthier. And I know this might sound like crazy because I'm like, I was disappointed that it all came back as nothing because I'm like, well, what's wrong with me?

What is wrong with me? Like, is it in my head? So I started doing psychotherapy and is there some trauma? Is there something I haven't looked at? Um, and one of the things that I remember when I first went into hospital, That for that stay, my mom had rang me and randomly mentioned, I remember like lying in the hospital bed that she was reading this book called Odd Girl Out.

And she's like, Oh, she sounds so like you to a tee like, and it's about a lady who's late diagnosed as autistic. And I was, so that planted the seed in my head as well as obviously, Um, the year before I'd like met, I'd written a book about being dyslexic and dyspraxic and having sensory issues. And a lot of autistic ladies, particularly that I met said like, it's, you know, I really relate to you.

And, and I didn't kind of draw all those conclusions despite the fact I was like working in this area for years. Um, so there's loads of things, joint pains, like really sore joints. I felt like my by aches and pains. And I kept getting this thing, which is like a malar rash. So my face would be like a butterfly red face.

Like it would just flare up, especially around three o'clock in the evening, like certain times in the day, it would just kick off. Um, and I get one stage we're looking at, is it lupus? And eventually then I was saying like, my periods have gone really strange. Like, you know, they've went to 48 days and 25 days.

And, and then, then I found out there was a family history of, um, early menopause, because at this stage I was only 37. And I found out that there was a fact, so nobody was looking or, nobody asked me about my cycles. The amount of times I saw different healthcare professionals and had different things. So my GP was really attentive.

Like she, she knows cause I'm never sick. I don't have any history of any mental health issues or any other kind of issues. Health issues. So she knew she, you know, she knows that that's not me, but we couldn't figure out what was going on. And I put so much pressure on myself and I remember there was times when my mood started to slip really badly because I didn't know how to get out of this mess because I didn't know what was causing it.

And I just felt like a burden because I couldn't care for my kids. I had a business, I closed my business, I couldn't, I couldn't work. Initially, I think the GP might have signed me off for a couple of weeks and then, you know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I just need two weeks, like, that's it, like, that, that'll be it.

Um, and just my, like, my speech even, like, I've always been a very talk, fast talker and stuff. Everything just, you know, went out. And I was, and I was, like, I was doing all the right things, like, focusing on sleep and everything. Anyway, eventually someone said, It sounds like perimenopause and I'm like, Oh, I don't know.

And then I looked up and a lot of the things I'm doing or we're trying to do are what you do around the lifestyle changes for perimenopause anyway. Um, but at that stage then, um, I got to see like an amazing lady, Dr. Cuiva Hartley, um, and. When I came in to see her, she said, honey, you're very menopausal, you know, like you, you really are.

And she's like, I'm not going to talk to you about the lifestyle cause you're doing that. She's like, try HRT. Um, and it was only one pump a day. Like I started on to see, cause when, when you've got migraines and stuff, there's a lot of things with HRT that you, you have to be more sensitive to. So again, like I had to take a transdermally, so it's supposed to orally, which I think is where a lot, you know, But most people tend to, that's the more preference way of doing it anyway.

Um, and we go slowly because it can have an impact. And it's literally because my, my Eastern levels were just kind of either, they were like going up and down and that it's that sensitivity to that fluctuation. The rollercoaster, and it literally was like being a teenager again, emotionally. Cause I would just like suddenly think like really intensely, like life is amazing.

Everything's good. And then five minutes later, you know, it's like, Oh my gosh. And it's like, do I bipolar? Do I have this? Like I wanted a label for this. And then I thought I tried HRT and after a couple of days, my little girl was like, mommy, you came home. And like, that broke my heart because the change, I actually saw a change that quickly.

And then my husband was like, Oh, so good to have you back. Cause I'm such a sharp person, like generally, and that just went out the window. That was probably one of the worst things for me, because again, I'm severely dyslexic. I really rely on my memory. I have such a detailed memory and it went. That was like my, it went and my energy was so floored that my ability to engage socially and interact like I didn't have that capacity and that kind of also planted the seed for where I am going, but it's a journey and I think if you miss some of those details.

Like it's all like really rich when you kind of realize, oh, and at the same time, like, again, you know, I was reading all those burnout books. I started to listen to books about, um, menopause and perimenopause. I remember when I was listening to them, I was crying hearing people's personal journeys because I related to it, But part of my head was like, you can't relate to it.

You're not perimenopause. Like, no, like you're too young. Um, and I didn't know enough or anything really about menopause or perimenopause, which is crazy, I suppose. And I remember having a friend that was over, who's a GP. And she was asking me like, who's my doctor? And I was like, Oh, listing off celebrities.

And she's like, really? And I'm like, Oh, no, maybe. And then she's like, I think it sounds like you might be worth looking at HRT. You know, I said about the periods at that stage. Um, and then I'd obviously had gone and had a proper review and being identified as yes, perimenopause, but it did have a massive impact on me.

Now it wasn't as smooth as, you know, we found, you know, you obviously need to oppose your oestrogen with pedestrian. And I'm really sensitive as it turns out to pedestrian. As are, Hannah, most women. I was only talking about this in a talk I was doing last night. Just saying to people, look, yeah, always be on the lookout for progesterone.

Because, you know the way we hear about the friend who got the Mirena coil in, she was like back to the doctor two days later. Take it out! That progesterone sensitivity is so common and I often find, you know, I say, like some women will start HRT and they can be disappointed after a few weeks because they might find that some symptoms, you know, become a little bit more exasperated, for example, like anxiety.

And I'm always saying, please look at progesterone because it might just be the type that you need to change. So you're, you're definitely not on your own in relation to that. No. Cool. And like some of them had really, like really strange effects on me and I'm really lucky that I didn't have a history of maybe anxiety or didn't have a history of depression because then it would be really hard to kind of tease out a little bit maybe.

But some of them I went on, I literally wasn't safe to be left alone. Like my husband, I was bawling and my husband was like, you know, and I did like under medical supervision, stop it short because it wasn't safe. And then two days later I was fine. Absolutely fine. And eventually I actually did go down and get the coil because it's, you know, it's, it's local and it's less and it's, but it was really, didn't want to get it.

I was so adverse to getting it from the sensory center. You know, I just thought, Oh no, I don't want this. And actually I haven't looked back, which I must say, you know, I'm, I'm back now. Um, and I couldn't have dreamt of being like, I couldn't find a way out like 18 months ago, I could not imagine being able to say like, I'm back.

Um, and I know like, I still have months where like, There is, like I had a few days of migraines there that I hadn't had for ages, like there is, there is going to be those ups and downs, but generally it's, it's working really well and I'm delighted. To have these answers and to know more about this, but at the same time I did put my name down on a list to To go for a formal autism assessment to kind of look at after the mom had planted the seed obviously and I Um, wasn't sure about it when I went into the process, whether what was going to come out of it.

Um, and it's, you know, it's quite a detailed, you know, my mom had to fill in lots of paperwork. My husband did, there was interviews with me, there was interviews with, like, it's quite a detailed piece of work. Um, and at the end of it, um, I was identified as being autistic and ADHD. And there's actually a term for it, which is an ADHD er, um, which totally makes sense because again, There was traits that I had that I thought, no, this couldn't be, I couldn't be autistic because I like novel.

I like, you know, I like socializing. I, my third way of communication is verbal interaction. That, that may also be because I'm severely dyslexic, but there was these little kind of pull pushes and kind of, and as I said, I work in this area for like more than a decade, but we study and we do this a lot.

Like it's the same around menopause or whatever else we do tend to study The male presentation of, we care more about how it presents in the male, um, traditionally, cause that's, you know, women's health is only a new kind of, which is dreadful to say or think about, but it's only now coming to the foreground.

So not only do we only look, we look at how it, what it presents like in a male population. And then we tend to look at, we tend to test using What we're trying to those, those symptoms. So for example, like a woman with an ADHD might have rejection sensitivity, might be perfectionist, might like to talk a lot, might interrupt people a lot, but they can also be very, you know, get lots of stuff done and, um, very hard on themselves, but.

Like finish things and they might not be the kid that's jumping off the, you know, distracting everyone, but they might like to move around. You might put your necklace in your mouth. You might eat is all those little tiny, more subtle pieces. And we're high maskers. But when something like perimenopause comes along and you are floored, you don't have the energy to mask anymore.

You don't have that capacity. And. Whether or not, like, I'd be highly sensitive in life in general to, to anything like coffee, chocolate, noise, you know, why wouldn't I be sensitive to a hormonal change or to, to trying different hormones? Like, I look back now and go, I couldn't tolerate the birth control.

It just did not work for me, which is in, you know, and you're kind of going. And I tried different ones. Like, I remember crying at a boyfriend in college going, why do you want to go home Study, like, why would I, like, and I literally, and then I came off the birth control because I didn't need it anymore.

And I was like, Oh, I'm normal again. I'm me again. Do you know what I mean? Because I was so sensitive to that fluctuation. Which is probably, and probably was the progesterone element again, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like when I had like babies, I had like a little bit of postnatal kind of, I wouldn't go quite as far as saying depression, but I did make a referral to the clinic on my third daughter because like the breastfeeding was going fine.

Everything was going great. The birth was amazing, but I wasn't myself, you know, and these are all like I, I'd be, you know, if you are someone who may have had postnatal oppression or might struggle with PMS, your, your chances are you're more likely to have a harder perimenopause potentially, or you're, you know, that seems to be the.

That is, we, that's kind of, there is, um, clinical evidence and stuff behind that. Um, yeah, unfortunately. So yeah, so I got my dive. So it's been a bit of a year for sure, from going from thinking my life was going in one direction to a really big, whoa, deep dive, but I understand myself more and I understand, you know.

I'm, I'm more like sensitive. I now do pace more. I do, I've like learned some really good, like I learned to meditate like after years and years and years and years of trying to meditate. And now I know as well that my A DHD brain of like, you know, how to shut that down. meditation is just, oh my, even, even if I have days where I'm really busy and even if I just do three, four minutes, oh, I just feel different when I.

Come out the other side of me, even if just minutes, just bliss, isn't it? I think the breath, I did a lot of breath work, like conscious connective breathing or different types of breath work. And sometimes having something tangible initially to tap into. And I think they say it's like a habit. So I've really got the opportunity to immerse myself.

In that, and then it became a habit. So it becomes really familiar. So I actually try and do it every morning when I wake up. I will even like, even if I only got two minutes or three minutes, I've loads of little tracks. I've just kind of cultivated, like put together so that I will just, and sometimes it could be humming, like inhale and then, but that just, it just really regulates.

And there is, you know, it has its point. I think in the world, it's got so busy and so many, like it's constantly on with the phones and the laptops, you know, with kids and work and life. Yeah. Just having a total zone out body reconnect as well. Like, you know, that's so important. So, so there are some stuff and you know, I make my sourdough and I make my kombucha, you know, so there's other things that I, I've kind of fostered in to kind of happen.

Oh, I'm coming, I'm coming for a coffee for the sourdough and the kombucha or tea. Yeah. Um, why not? Like, and then I kind of have realized, oh, okay. So certain social interactions. You know, feed me in certain social interactions, train me. And I've learned to say no a little bit more, which is, I still struggle.

Like I still will say no. And I feel really guilty when I say no, but I also realized that's really important to say no because you can't keep going. Yeah. And I think, look, I think, you know, I always do say one of the gifts you do get with menopause anyway, is. It is the power of saying no and we do realize for many women when they go through menopause it does come to a stage where you have to look after yourself and it's a really important part of the psychological process of menopause and you'll find many women, Hannah will say that to you, that they do.

you know, they come from a place of deeper confidence where they will actually, they feel okay. No, actually, I, I'm not going to go to that or I can't do that. And, you know, I think that can be very powerful and that's definitely one of the gifts. I would say that comes with menopause, you know, where you just maybe realize.

That you need to look after yourself more. I have to say there's a tiny bit of fear in me. A little bit too of if I keep going, will that happen again? Because as someone who's always enjoyed really good health, it was scary. Like it is, and you do feel like it's in your head. Like I kept saying to my husband, even then, I'm like, is it in my head?

Is the HRT only working? Cause I think it's working. And he's like, well, then all the migraine meds would have worked. Then all this would have worked. And I was like, Oh, okay. Cause sometimes, you know, and I'm a black and white thinker to some degree. Like I want hard. Like, I nearly wanted a scan to go, there you go, that's what's wrong, you know.

Yeah, right. But there's relief, isn't there, when you, like you were saying, you know, there's always relief. Like, let's say you're exhausted and then you go for your bloods and they come back, like you said, normal. It's like, aww. Because you're looking for something nice and clear to come up that then you say, okay, that's it.

Can we just go back to when you were talking about at the age of 37 and that you then discovered there was a family. A history of early menopause. So, as you know, this is an area I do a lot of work in. And just this week I had my monthly POI Friends Support Group, where, you know, I work with the young women who've been diagnosed very early, some of them from 10, 11, 12 onwards with, Um, early menopause.

And one of the big things we talk like, you know, that has come through for many of the girls is that they do find there is that genetic link and maybe they weren't aware of it. And that's so important because let's say for, um, if you girls are, as it goes down through the family chain. Yeah. When it comes to fertility, it's really important to know that earlier, so that it, you know, that if you did want to start a family, that you don't leave it till you're older, or if you have to, you want to freeze eggs and all of those types of things, there's different ages.

That are important. So was that something, had you ever had a conversation with your mum about that? No, and I, and I guess if it doesn't impact her, there's like, you know, my mum had all of us really young. I had Mike, like I had, I had four kids, so I was done. So, you know, I, you know, I, in today's age, maybe had them youngish, not young, young, but like I was 29 having my first and finished by then.

35, I think, or 30, you know, as an, I know a lot of women today are having babies a little bit later, you know, so I was, I was lucky in that sense, you know, um, so no, it was never on the cards for me or just never was something that I like. And you know what, it's one of those things, it's a little bit like, Okay.

So like I've now, like when you hear someone say before, like, you know, Oh, miscarriage and people go, Oh, it's just this. Like if you've experienced a miscarriage, you then go, Oh my gosh, this is not, it's not just a period. No, it doesn't mean matter if it happens to seven weeks or 20, you know, this has a massive impact hormonally, the body and all this stuff.

You don't really know about it until you know about it to some degree, or maybe. Maybe that's my, me being autistic and kind of going like, I don't, I don't need to know about that. But same with menopause, like, I didn't realize I needed to know about it until it hit me. And maybe that's an age thing or a naivety.

I don't know why, but now I know. That's normal. Is it normal? Okay, great. I mean, like, if you think about it, you know, the way, um, like you don't, you don't, Think about labor, um, until you're pregnant. Do you know, so I think we don't think about things until You protect them most too, I think, isn't it? But since that I've now set up a women's well being group because I think we need to all talk, we need to all know about this, we need to all share, we need to be able to support each other.

Um, cause we do need to know. And like, I want my daughters, like my kids, like. Like my son joke, but like, it was a little, cause we were trying to explain. It's like, yeah, mommy has a broken vagina. I'm like, no, it's not a broken vagina. What I actually have is, this is not. And he's like, no, no, that's you mommy.

And like, and they're having these conversations, you know, trying to figure out what was going, cause it was scary time for them. Like it was like, I actually had to, I was so vulnerable. And like I know sometimes it is important to like lean into that vulnerability and find, and that's probably what I'm trying to say.

I found meaning, and that's why I'm ha happy to have this conversation. I mean, it's not an amazing conversation that you want the world to hear, but it's an important one because you know, really important. It's real life and it affects people. And I had to, you know. There's a whole thing of like man's search for meaning, like if bad things happen or if things that are challenging happen, you have to find meaning in them by changing things or doing things.

And I, I, I'm, I'm going to take that as, as a positive as well that has come out of this experience. But I had to like phone neighbors that I didn't know that well, but I knew their kids were in the same kind of preschool as my kids or school and said, I can't, I can't get out of bed. Can you please pick up my kids today?

Like, which was mad, but I, I, I could not do that. Like I had to call in favors. I was so, I don't think I can explain how unfunctional I was. I like my life stopped and went to pause. But now when I know more about menopause, this started when I was 35. I went to the GP with itchy legs thinking I'd like not, obviously I knew there wasn't spiders in my legs, but the sense of such intense itching and antihistamines weren't really working.

I hadn't changed any fabrics off and like went through the checklist. I'll do a little bit of, um, you know, psychotherapy. Cause you know, is it this, but I had had a, I have just like, I have two brothers that had passed away and one of them had issues with liver. So again, itchy skin, I was wondering, was it connected?

And I was wondering, was there some bereavement kind of trauma or stress I hadn't dealt with, but I'd be really proactive and, you know, had done all of that kind of counselling and stuff. Um, so I didn't feel like it was there and they didn't feel like there was anything there, but the bloods came back fine in terms of liver markers.

So we were like, okay, It, you know, it, what, what's this random thing I was getting the rosacea earlier as well. I was losing weight. I wasn't able to sleep. I was having, you know, I went to the doctor to check my thyroid levels. Like these are all pre, I was having spotting in between periods and I had a gyne appointment and they were like, Oh, well you've had four babies, you know, like all of these other markers and I was getting more and more and more headaches and migraines multiple times a month.

And I thought it's just because I'm working so hard, you know, I've, and actually now that I'm joining the dots, I'm like, no, these are like early, these are, yeah, these are all signs like, um, Yeah. And I think that's where, like, you know, it's great, like, you know, now, in terms of for your daughter, it's passing that information down the line is really, really, um, important.

And I think, you know, the good thing is that as more awareness around menopause comes up, we know that people are becoming more aware of the different types of menopause. So like premature ovarian insufficiency, you know, the earlier forms of menopause, which is really important. Because Hannah, I find. You know, I do this support group every month.

We've new women joining every month, which shows to me, new women are being newly diagnosed. Now, unfortunately, what happens in most cases, it's that they start an IVF journey and it's when they go to the fertility clinic. They just, they discover actually you're in menopause and that's very, very tough because then it's a very different journey in conversation.

So, you know, I think the more awareness we can bring to early forms of menopause, um, you know, it's, it's really important. One thing I just wanted to talk about is, you know, what it can feel like to be an ADHD autistic woman, right? And I'm just going to read out some of the key things that you're talking about.

You've been described as quirky, you are empathetic, you cope well in a crisis, you form deep and meaningful friendships but can go long periods without contact. You're intuitive and can pick up on atmosphere's tiny cues and details. You're analytical. You care about matters of social justice. You're honest.

You've a great imagination. You've an interest in a focused mind. You're creative. Music helps you to feel emotion. Books and learning feed your soul. Nature has a strong impact on you. You can find beauty or glimmers even in the mundane and the tragic. Your excellent problem solving abilities You are fun to be around and have plenty to talk about.

Now when I look at that list, I kind of think, okay, that ticks a box for many of us. But then if I look at the other side of it, which is, you may also feel like this. You feel like you don't fit in. You have an internal feeling that something is wrong. You're overthinking and analysing. Anxiety. Need more time alone than others.

Work and learning that is interesting to you now becomes hard. You need time pressure to finish the last part of a task, or it can feel like there's no off button in your, in your brain. You've ongoing cycles of being unwell and exhausted. And in fact, you're wondering, who actually am I? So when I look at that, I'm like, That's a lot of women in perimenopause through to menopause because the great question, that final one, who am I?

That's one of the deep psychological aspects of the transition that is menopause. So when you look at those, it's very hard to distinguish, is it perimenopause or what else is happening? Well, I think this is the big thing. So if you're autistic. You've always been autistic and I've, I describe it in, in my memoir about, I always felt like I was, I didn't fit in, I didn't, it's that sense of a feeling of not belonging, come as in, you just don't, it doesn't feel, it's like you're put in a different culture.

So the sense, that sense of not belonging hits you maybe in perimenopause, but if you've had that deep rooted sense of, you're always trying hard, you feel like you're, you're, um, The way you experience the world feels different to everyone else that your friendships, you might be very good at making friends, but not necessarily at keeping them.

That might be more of an ADHD kind of pattern, or you only like socializing on one to one that might be more of an autistic pattern. So it's these subtleties have to have been there before. I mean, you can also look at sleep and during perimenopause sleep is one of the things that comes up, but if you have ADHD, you've probably always struggled with sleep or not everybody, but if that was a trait for you, it was probably always there.

I always talked. I couldn't switch my brain off at night since the age of like three or four. And, and that's why they gather the information from sources from when you were a child, as well as like an adult and things. So you're looking at those different qualities. Um, but if you think if someone is already having all of those struggles or those kinds of conflicts or sense of deep passions or not passionate, that, that is going on for a person that has gone on from childhood.

If you then having more extreme pressure put on you, like hormones. You know, fluctuating, it's going at those behaviors, those experiences are going to be greater for that person. And there's actually articles, and this is where the research is starting to come out, that a lot of women are late diagnosed around the time of perimenopause or menopause.

That can be for two reasons. Now, one is because their children might be getting identified around that same time, depending on the ages of their children, and then they go, I do that, I do that, that's me. And the other reason is the hormonal changes that are kind of put into that. And I've heard somewhere, someone say something before, like if you haven't dealt with something, When menopause comes along, you're kind of forced to deal with whatever that is.

So that may be a self discovery. That you probably heard me say that because I always talk about, you know, that menopause is this, there's a mirror held up and it's like, it is a great question. Who am I? James Hollis, a famous psychologist, he talks about the middle passage that women go through and that it is that You look at, you know, who am I, other than so and so's mother, partner, what I do in work.

It is that raw, breaking it down into who actually am I. And I think that's, that's where I talk about the deep psychological aspects of menopause. And we do know, you know, things maybe from the past resurface, looking to be dealt with. As you go through menopause. So that all comes into the mix. And I think also too, when we talk about this, there is this whole fact I know like with young girls compared to boys, girls are better at maybe just, there's an intuitive masking that happens.

The camouflaging. Yes. And we, and we do. And, and do you know what? Like, You don't, like, I think it's wonderful now we are learning and knowing more that there's another way of being in the world, you know, it's okay to be neurodivergent. It's not that you're wrong. It's just a different way of being. But the problem is a lot of systems and things are set up in a neurotypical way.

And therefore it can be a bit more challenging for someone who's neurodivergent. Um, And I think as well, like this is the time where like, you know, menopause is something that people didn't necessarily want to know about or want to associate about, but like equally people don't like necessarily always relate, like there wasn't people like me to relate to when I grew up, if that makes sense.

So I just tried to be. I was always me. I couldn't be anything but me. And like that, you know, I was blunt. I can be, you know, um, I'm, I'm really passionate about certain things. And the girls as well, this is the thing about autistic girls, particularly our special interests are kind of more similar, you know, boys, you know, television.

So, so even like, and actually they call it passions now, cause I think special interests can sometimes be picked up the wrong way, but I would say my, my particular interests of at a time, um, or my passion and boys nowadays actually are. You were also finding that like Nintendo or switch or other things are their kind of interest.

And that has a lot more social, you know, um, crossover between neurodivergent neurotypical people. So it's more, it's more, it's easier. But what was interesting for me was my peers weren't going to perimenopause at the same time as me. So they'd. They don't necessarily want to be knowing about menopause.

So it was the first time something happened that I didn't have other people, like it's became my special interest. Like literally every book, every paper, I want to know more and more about it because it's really like, it's how I experienced the world. I need to know as much information. Um, and I like to talk to people who are, you know, are interested in like, look, I'm hoping to hopefully do a PhD in this area, even because it's something that is passionate, but most 37 year olds aren't going through this.

So it shows that little bit of an outlier kind of, Oh, so having babies around the same time and people talking about babies and kids was quite, you know, whether I was neurotypical or neurodivergent, there was a common interest there that raffled those relationships. Yeah. Um, it's just interesting when you start analyzing the difference that, yeah, it's just a different way of being, but that sensory sensitivity went, and with the hormone fluctuation went above and beyond what it used to be.

It got to a level where it was not. Tolerable and my ability to emotionally regulate under that pressure because of the hormone fluctuation meant I was more exposed. And also I, I found I didn't have the energy that was required to do some of those social interactions or go into those environments, um, that I wouldn't have known.

Why before, so it's actually, it is a little bit of a, I mean, it, it did take a long time to process and understand what does this mean now, but as I said, I've always been autistic. I've always been an ADHD er. I just understand it now. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I, I often wonder like it's the whole, It's the whole piece of evolution, that this is just the way our brains are evolving, and like you say, now, thankfully, we're talking more openly and in a more supportive way, which to me is hugely important, um, you know, and I think, I think, like, I really hope we start to see more research coming out because I think it's so important because I would have a lot of women who contact me and like that they will say that they're newly diagnosed and they're trying to kind of get a handle on everything and understand kind of well you know what are the right supports etc and just like you were chatting earlier Hannah.

Um, I would see with many women, they, you know, might look at HRT or could be anything else, but they're way more sensitive to, you know, to maybe, you know, medications, even complementary therapies, and that can obviously work in their favor or work against them, you know, because of that heightened sensitivity.

So, really, are we looking at the fact that, you know, there's traits there already, and then when you come into perimenopause through, um, More pressure is added and then those traits become more obvious. Yeah. Um, it may be a little bit of both. Yeah. That there, as you said, the sensitivity is there, but equally it's a transition.

It's a period of transition. A lot of people struggle with transition and it's an unknown. So it's like an out of control. And then also like hospital environments are really stressful for someone who has sensory sensitivity. Because it's bright light, it's noise, it's touch. And like, and that experience is really tough too.

So you've, you lump that into the mix, you know, and you've got that, you know, and a lot of people who maybe are late diagnosed, this is the interesting thing as well, particularly around the female population. They're often diagnosed with other conditions before they finally get told, no, you're actually autistic or you, you're actually.

An ADHD or you might be, they may end up having anxiety issues because of high masking and a lot of pressure. Um, they may have depression. They may be told they have personality disorders. They may be told like, actually, I think there was some crazy statistic. I'm not going to make it up now, but that high amount of women are often take, like take a huge amount of years before they will get that label or that identification.

Um, because. They'll be quicker, like, it's probably like similar. You'd be probably offered like previously antidepressants and stuff before people maybe look at perimenopause or HRT. And actually you're kind of saying, well, why, why are we doing this? Why are we not saying, could it be, could it be autism?

Could it be ADHD? You know, and then people are told what you're married. You make eye contact, you do this, you do that. And this, this is what we need to do. We need to dispel these myths and also go, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with being autistic. Do you know what I mean? But it's important to understand because there's a lovely quote about um, finding your tribe.

And like, if you're learning how to do everything, you know, like it's, I'm going to try to butcher that quote, but basically it's really important that we learn who we are and learn from others like us. So that we feel happy and accepted in ourselves and know that there's other ways of doing and other ways of being in the world.

Um, and that's where, you know, you'll have less secondary health conditions. Like, you know, there's high rates of cancer. There's high rates of, um, suicide. There's high, like with autistic people, it is high, the statistics aren't great. And the statistics are probably there. Maybe they need more health support earlier, or maybe it's the high pressure of trying to, to mask and exist in a world that's not safe.

Yeah, and I think that masking is exhausting, right? Isn't it? You know, like a young child who maybe is, uh, staying under the radar at school because they're putting all the energy into it and then the explosion comes when they get home. So that, and that's exhausting. And you know, I think that's a lot of like, you know, where you, maybe you're outside and you're, you get through your work, your day at work and then you come home, you flop on the couch.

I'm not saying it's just that, but you know, I know it's that, but it's bigger than that because actually what you're doing every time is you're activating that nervous system. You're getting all that, you know, cortisol, you're, you're not saying that word, right? Adrenaline and stuff like it's not healthy for a person to be busting and booming the whole time.

Um, and that's where nature, as you think, one of the things you read was like, I like being in nature. It calms me. I've got these senses and it is strength based as well. Like there is all these really positive and lean into those, you know, where we tend to not, we tend to mask and lean away from them and try and be something, something else.

Um, and that is that kind of, you know, And the gut health is connected. If you think about like a lot of the IBS and the sensitivity, like it, I find it fascinating and it's a whole podcast in itself, but in terms of the link, there is a lot of women that absolutely struggle extra with this time in their life because there's multiple things going on for them.

And it's a sense of discovery, a sense of. You know, growth, but also sense of loss and, you know, it, it, and it's individual for everybody. So the list you read, like there's lots of autistic people that would be like, or even ADHDers be like, I don't relate to that. I'm not very good at problem solving. I'm not this.

Do you know what I mean? And if we just realize that everybody's an individual and everyone's journey is going to be unique, you know, everyone's even perimenopause or menopause experience is going to be so unique, but let's be open to, to addressing the things that. The person is presenting with and supporting them to get through that.

And, and I think also too, is, is, it's a huge long list of positives, you know, and I think it's kind of just, you know, as you say, it's just trying to, um, look at it with a balanced view to me is, is just so important. And I think part of the, like, it's so amazing. Like I've been, in talking in workplaces since 2018 and it's so amazing to see how the menopause conversation has progressed and I think always part of that for me has been the passion of the individual nature of menopause and supporting the individual.

Going through menopause. And I think that's probably, this is another layer now that we need to bring to, like, we, we also need to ensure that we're really supporting, um, people who have additional challenges, if it's disabilities, et cetera. And I think now the neurodivergent angle is another piece that workplaces need to kind of be more aware of, and kind of understand that this is a Another aspect of menopause that again needs more awareness and that will mean that there might be different practical measures that, you know, can be adjusted for in work.

And you know, it's like that, like you say, the bright lights, things like that, you know, and some of these things that can be done are really, really easy, but can be a game changer. For a person who's having sensory issues or other challenges. Or like the heat, like let's say you're more sensitive to like flushes or flashes, you know, heat, heat.

So just allow you to have, have the seat beside the window and turn your personal radiator off. Do you know what I mean? The one beside you, like all those little things make a difference. Cause there's no point in everyone turning all the radiators off. You'd be freezing or all the windows open or all the lights off.

You'd be like, you'd be stumbling into each other and it is just being open. I was in a workplace recently, Hannah, and, uh, There was a, they were saying to me, there was one, uh, one, one office where I think there was about 10 people in the office, but one of the girls was going through, um, menopause and they come in in the morning.

It was like an icebox. They would, she'd be there like literally, you know, with the hot flushes, they'd be there with the, with the scar. So it's kind of getting the happy, the happy medium is, uh, is, is what you're looking for really. Well, I used to take the light bulb just directly off my desk in the chaired office.

So we just would unscrew the light bulb directly above me. So everyone else had light, but I wasn't having that sense. So it's being creative like that. But yeah, I love, I love that actually. And I guess it depends on the office. If it's something, you know, it really depends on the structure, you know, the office environment, but that's why I always say.

It's, you have to think in workplaces, but even outside the workplace, it has to be the individual. You're not looking at any stereotypical aspect of menopause. You're looking at the individual in front of you because you could have two people in your life or in your team at work who are going through menopause, two completely different experiences.

And we have to, I, I, I have, in all my years in menopause, I have seen many occasions where there has been great disrespect to the men, to menopause, to people going through menopause. And it's something I've harped on about a lot, that you respect menopause by respecting the individual and the individual's experience of menopause.

And it's something I'm really, really passionate about. And it's the same with, with, Someone like one person who has autism or is autistic, their needs are not going to be the same as someone else's. So let's not lob it all in. Do you know what I mean? And it's the same takeaway message and it does affect, you know, little tiny changes and things can make life or work or different things doable.

It's the difference between things happening or not happening. Um, and it's really, I'm really excited that we had this conversation today, Catherine. And, and I definitely think like, um, you know, I think I, Hannah, this is, this is the first. We're definitely going to come back and, uh, talk about this subject again, because as we both know, you know, more is going to happen in this area and hopefully, you know, we'll see more coming out of Ireland in relation to this area as well.

And, uh, Thank you so much for being so honest about your journey, because I know, I, I know I get messages at least once a week from someone who's been newly diagnosed. So I think this is going to be so powerful for people who are just maybe starting the journey in the middle of the journey. And maybe like you said, it can be scary.

There can be fear there. And it's just, it's so lovely. To hear you're not alone, even if it's just menopause, but in anything you're going through in life. So thank you so much for sharing. No. And I think that you were sorry, um, you're not alone, but there was something else I really wanted to say there that you, you need to learn to advocate for yourself and that takes confidence as well.

And that's a big thing, whether it's about, you know, Going into the GP and saying, this is what I need, or whether it's going into, uh, an environment and saying, I can or can't do this, or can you change this? Or it's okay that you, it's okay to feel the way you feel and it's okay to ask for the things you need.

And I think that would be a really good take home message to someone. And you, you know, it doesn't come easy. You have to practice it a little bit, but you will get used to, and that comes back to valuing yourself. And finding that value in yourself again. And I think as women, we are not as good at that, but, you know, giving yourself the gift of being able to ask for what you need, um, and knowing that it's okay to ask is really important.

Yeah. And that's a lovely note to end on. Um, thanks so much, Hannah. And for anyone listening, we'll have all the details in the show notes where you can connect with Hannah and follow her on social media. Thank you. Thanks, Hannah.