Skin & Hair Secrets Every Woman Should Know

Today on the Menopause Uprising Podcast we have Dr Mandy Leonhardt discussing her new book, 'What Every Woman Needs to Know About Her Skin and Hair.'

Our skin and hair greatly impact our confidence and well-being. Women often feel pressure to have flawless skin and thick hair, but both respond to hormonal changes throughout life. When we face issues like unhealthy skin or hair loss, we want to know why and how to fix it.

I hope you enjoy this episode! Don’t forget to rate and review the podcast—it helps us reach more women seeking support through perimenopause and menopause.

To buy What Every Woman Needs to Know About Her Skin and Hair: click HERE

To buy The Complete Guide to POI and Early Menopause, click HERE

Transcript -Automatically Generated

Welcome to this episode of Menopause Uprising with me, your host, Catherine O'Keefe. Today, we're talking all things skin, hair and nail care with the lovely Dr. Mandy Leinhart, who has just brought out her second book. And we're talking about Why we shouldn't pluck our eyebrows, the challenges of the chin whiskers that come in perimenopause and menopause, why Vaseline could be your best friend in the menopause years and much more.

Remember on whatever platform you're listening to, To, if you could rate, review, and comment on the podcast, would be greatly appreciated. I hope you enjoy today's episode. So, Mandy, huge. Congratulations again on your second book and your first one being such a fantastic resource to so many women in relation to premature ovarian insufficiency.

I was so thrilled to read and review, um, your new book, What Every Woman Needs to Know About Skin and Hair. And I think really when you look at it, it's such a big subject, isn't it? And it's so, it's everywhere. It's on social media and the media. And we can kind of get lost in relation to the basics. And I think really the message in your book, in many ways, and I know there's a huge amount of fantastic information in it.

in it, but it's bringing it back to basics in terms of how our hormones impact every aspect of our skin and our hair, our nails, et cetera. Um, but you just wanted to like, why this book? What made you, you know, after your last book, what made you delve into this book? Thank you so much for having me, Catherine.

And thank you for, for reading the book and complimenting me about it. It's really very kind. Um, so why did I, um, write this book? Well, when I wrote the first book about, um, the complete guide to PI and early menopause, I did a chapter or a small section on skin and hair, because that is something that these women told us that bothered them.

You know, when you, you know, um, we lose your hair and your skin is, is sort of appears to be aging. And I dug into this and I wrote a very small chapter on this, which we included in our first book. And then I thought, Oh my God, this is fascinating. I love this subject. And the more I read about hormones.

The more I got fascinated about the connection between skin and hair, and I found myself lying in bed at night with my laptop, Googling the connection between melatonin and its impact on hair or estrogen and skin and hair loss after menopause. Why does it happen? And it became an obsession really. And I thought, you know what?

I can't be the only one who's interested in that because a lot of the time when women come to see me as a doctor who treats menopause, One of the questions when they have a skin or hair condition is could this be hormonal? Is this related to my hormones? Is that just random? Is that stress? Is it my hormones?

And stress, by the way, is related to hormones, aka stress hormones, adrenaline, cortisol, and so on. And I wasn't always able to answer that question. So I thought, let's look into this. And that's why I wrote the book. Um, I had accumulated a folder with over a thousand scientific publications that I had kind of come across and stored in that folder.

And I thought, how can I condense this into an accessible, um, book that many women can benefit from, who really want to dig deep, uh, dig, you know, dive, have a deep dive into the way our body internally interacts with our body. with our outside. So how, how does the inside interact with our outside? And I stumbled across all these fascinating connections between the gut and skin connection, you know, and the brain and skin connection.

And yeah, that's how I wrote it. That's how it came about really. And I think it's a resource too. And I know obviously for, you know, A lot of the, the, the women that I work with and talks I do, obviously it's around, you know, perimenopause and on. But I think the book has a great insight for younger, uh, women as well, just to understand kind of what actually is happening in your body.

And I think, I think that's a great gift if you can understand that early on, uh, it's like kind of one of those. pieces of wisdom that you can pass down, isn't it? That maybe we start to look at it when we're in our 40s and 50s because it becomes more of an issue, maybe with menopause, dryness, etc. But really, if we can understand it in our younger years, that's a huge benefit.

Yeah, it does cover puberty, um, all the way through our reproductive years, pregnancy, our menstrual cycle, then premenopause, perimenopause, menopause. And a lot of women, for example, are frightened when they had severe acne in their young puberty. They're frightened when they get spots during perimenopause.

They worry, Oh my God, do I get that same bad acne I had when I was a teenager? Which is that. Am I prone to having this or, you know, so that, and will it get better? That's always the question. Is there something I can do? Will it get better? Is that just me? And I should just accept it. And talk about, I know you mentioned a few minutes ago, I know we both have a shared passion in relation to this is the impact of your gut on your skin and on your hair.

Can you maybe just talk us through that a bit? Yes, so this is quite complicated and it's the early, in the early stages of research, but um, everyone, I mean, unless you have been living on the stone, you have noticed that the gut health has had, has been trending, you know, with regards to mental health, with regards to IBS, um, digestion in general, but also, um, now we have identified that there are bacteria that interact with our skin.

So they, they produce certain molecules, um, they break down the food we eat into certain molecules that could be potentially beneficial for our skin. And these bacteria also obviously, um, um, healthy gut health will always benefit our skin most of the time. There have been connections between skin cancer and the food we eat.

But also, um, on the, on the flip side, I don't know if this is not in my book, but if you, for example, have eat celery juice, um, sorry, drink celery juice every day, which some women use for, for slimming or for, um, for losing weight. This can increase your risk of skin cancer because it makes your skin more sensitive to sunlight and UV light.

So the food we eat has a huge impact on our skin health. There's been scientific evidence about, um, omega 3 and acne. You know, if you have a higher diet rich in omega 3, it can benefit your, your acne. It can reduce breakouts of acne. Um, polyphenols, uh, contain antioxidants, so red berries, anything red and purple and, uh, um, contain polyphenols, polyphenols and they are hugely beneficial for, for the skin as well.

And it's not just the absorption of these nutrients that then travel to the skin. It's, um, some bacteria that will flourish with the diet have benefits. Independently from the foods, so from the nutrients we ingest, they produce molecules that are actually beneficial for our skin in its own right. And they, they produce these molecules, they travel to the skin, and they can protect our skin, um, help with wound healing, help with, um, um, Uh, you know, UV, UV protection, for example, um, like, like, like lycopene, uh, which is in tomatoes.

Um, so ketchup, for example, or tomato juice, if we boil and cook tomatoes, um, then we have actually raw tomatoes are less beneficial than cooked tomatoes. In this instance, the tomato sauce, um, contains a very beneficial compound that helps, um, to UV light. I'm not saying it will ever replace, um, sunscreen, but all of these components.

Uh, interact with our gut bacteria and also then enhance our skin health. It is hugely complicated. And, um, and the other microbiome issue that I might want to mention is the skin, the gut has its own microbiome, the bacteria and microbes that live there, but the skin has its own microbiome as well. So we have bacteria that live on our skin, not just bacteria, but all sorts of micro microbes that live on our skin that are an absolutely important part of our skin health.

And if we disrupt, if we disturb them, and if the wrong type of bugs start growing on our skin, it becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And when you talk about, uh, I mean, I just find gut health fascinating and I, there's a lot of research being done here in Ireland in UCC down in Cork, uh, with Professor John Crane and all of that.

And it is, it is back to, you know, we are what we eat. Um, and I know the celery juice, for example, I think that was a massive thing in the, in the US a couple of years ago. Yes, a while ago. Yes. Yeah, and proven to be quite, as you said, has many downsides to it, but when you look at nourishing the gut, you know, it does have so many implications in terms of our skin, our mood and everything, and how we feel.

Steve, what do you think about, or have you any thoughts on, you know, there's a lot of, um, you know, maybe supplements that are out there that are targeted towards, uh, prebiotics, probiotics, um, towards the gut. Have you any thoughts on those? Do you mean specifically for gut health or for skin, skin health?

Yeah, yeah, for gut, well, for gut health or, I don't know if I've seen probiotics that are targeted to skin health, maybe there is some, is there? Yeah, there are already commercially available probiotics for wrinkles. Now that I would, yes, yeah, you can take supplements that contain certain bacterial strains that apparently have been shown to reduce wrinkles and increase moisture in the skin.

Saying that, just take this with a pinch of salt. We haven't got enough. big research data available to support these supplements at the moment. There is more research and more data available for supplements that, um, address gut issues like bloating, um, and, and, uh, digestive issues. So there are some good, I don't want to name specific brands, um, but there's the one I know that I could mention is Simprove, which is, um, which is, has been trialed by King's College London, they, they have done independent clinical trials and that has been shown to improve inflammatory and, um, bowel disease, but also IBS, um, so, but the, the majority, I've recently seen a study on probiotics and it said that 7 out of 9 of these strains did not survive the stomach.

bacteria, the stomach acid. So we have to be really careful. Women can waste a lot of money on these types of probiotics. And I think there's more evidence coming through now that it is not the probiotics that are actually changing the gut bacteria and gut microbiome for the better. It's the food that we eat that changed the bacteria.

So I would, if you, um, there are, if you have a specific gut issue like IBS. or bloating. I would say there's companies like Octobac or Simproof that have done independent clinical trials for specific gut related issues like bloating or, or IBS where you could have a go at taking a probiotic specifically for this, for this issue.

But I'm always worried about women taking long term probiotics without having a beneficial effect for non specific health reasons, you know, where they don't have specific reason as to why you want to take them. If you don't have a condition or if you don't have a specific reason, I would not recommend that anyone needs a probiotic for the, for, for, just for general health.

I would say, focus on eating the healthy food, the prebiotics. So the food that the bacteria eat to help the right bacteria nourish. And these are. polyphenols. These are fiber, fiber, fiber. You know, this is, um, these are, um, the rainbow of foods and that we should be eating because with those foods, we'd make a long term change rather than just taking the probiotic.

There's a famous yogurt drink, for example, that you might know as well. Um, that has polyphenols. Um, advertised for gut health. Um, but what they've shown is that the benefits are only there as long as you keep taking the drink, but that's not, and as soon as you stop the benefits stop. So that is not really a good long term approach.

Whereas if you eat the correct food, if you eat the healthiest food, you can, um, you know, prebiotics, fructooligosaccharides and so on, then you make long term changes and then you maintain the healthy gut, um, um, In itself, without having to buy expensive supplements. Yeah. And I think like we have over here, we've, um, milk kefir.

I love milk kefir as a fermented food. And I know there's a recent strain here down in Kerry and they now have founded 24 strains of bacteria in their milk kefir, you know, so I find, you know, getting it through your food, as you say, is just, I mean, to me, that's the best way. Much better than taking your peps twice a year.

Yeah. Targeting something, something and you get more nutrients with the caffeine. You get other protein, you get minerals. Yeah. Yeah. And fiber. and fiber. Yeah. And the, and the all important fiber. Right. And so when we, when we look at kind of the impact of our hormones, um, on our skin and uh, on our hair, can we just talk about hair Mandy for a few minutes because that's something that.

I know, can be really challenging for so many people. Now, I know I'm blessed, I've got a huge head of hair on me, um, but I know many women struggle with thinning hair, particularly kind of coming into the latter years of perimenopause. Is that purely dense menopause? Um, it's, it's, I would think it is not just purely down to menopause.

There are three factors that have an impact on our hair in our later years and our, um, after. So that one is, Certainly, I think the loss of estrogen has an impact on scalp health, thickness of the skin. Estrogen promotes hair growth. It keeps hairs in the growing phase. A lot of women during pregnancy, when they have a lot of estrogen, in those nine months, The hair grows like crazy, it's beautiful, it's slushy, it's thick, because oestrogen keeps hair growing.

But then when the hormones change, they find their hair suddenly falls out because there's a disruption in the hormone level. And then the hair goes from the growing phase into the shedding phase three months later, and they are very upset about this. So we do know oestrogen has a huge impact on hair health and scalp health and skin thickness and moisture and maintaining the hair follicle health.

Um, but saying that there's another component other than menopause where estrogen obviously declines quite a lot, which is genetics so some women have a genetic trade where they Tend to respond to different hormones. They have all the response differently, for example Testosterone in particular which does not decline as rapidly So when you have less estrogen in your bloodstream after menopause, but your testosterone is still very high fairly normal and hasn't changed much, which it doesn't do, it doesn't really drop off a cliff with menopause.

The hair follicles become a target for the testosterone and some women have a genetic, are genetically prone to experience menopause. thinning because of testosterone levels, you know, they target the hair follicles. This may not be so much the case when they still have estrogen, because estrogen kind of counteracts the effects of testosterone in hair follicles.

But when you don't have estrogen, then you have a genetic trade, um, trade that makes you more prone to, to losing your hair because of testosterone. That may happen. And the fourth thing is, is also, um, Um, so it's, it's aging in general. So as we get older, the cell turnover, uh, slows down, um, everything slows down, wound healing slows down as a result of, of aging.

So aging, genetics and menopause, they all play a role. That does not mean that every single woman who becomes menopausal will lose her hair, but we do see that. About 40 percent of women do report thinning, thinner hair than previously. And it all depends where you start off. 40 percent is it? Yeah, 40 percent of post menopausal women do report, to some extent, a change in hair texture, thickness, or density.

So that's quite a lot. That doesn't mean that they are not happy with their hair. You know, if you, it depends on where you start off. If you start off with very thick and dense hair, you may not notice a little reduction in hair growth or hair loss. If you already have Thin hair throughout your life, very, quite fine and, and not very denser.

You will notice it quick, more sooner. So it all depends. And, um, there are treatments available, you know, but there are different types of hairing. There's female pattern alopecia, which is hair thinning down the midline, which is more related to testosterone. It's thinning around the crowns. If you look at down in someone's head, you will see the, the, the widening of a center parting.

There's also sudden shedding of hair where hair. is lost all over, um, very quickly after three, usually three months after a stressful event, either psychological stress or physical stress. And that's called telogen effluvium. That's usually reversible. Whereas the androgen related or hair thinning will progress and either get worse or not improve.

it with it with time. And there's, there's, there are other conditions which are, um, uh, alopecia areata, which is, um, hair thinning, hair loss in, in small patches. So where they have small circles of hair thinning, um, that needs different treatments, but generally speaking, women after menopause, the majority will likely see a slight thinning overall.

Um, and that is normal. And you, you rarely see an 80 year old woman with a very dense head of hair. You know, it does progress. It does get slightly worse. You can mask it, you can cover it up, but without treatment right at the beginning. So when hair follicles are dead, when you've lost your hair follicle, it will not produce a new hair.

There's nothing you can do 20 years after you've You've lost that hair follicle to bring it back. What you have to do is if you're worried after menopause, it's best to get treatment straight away when you notice the thinning. And the crux of the problem is you have to keep going for the rest of your life with using treatment.

As soon as you stop the treatment, like minoxidil or something, the hair will go back to how it would be. So that's the problem. So you either accept it or if you don't want to accept it, do treat it, but then be aware that you have to keep doing the treatment. And what is the treatment, Mandy? So we don't have an awful lot, so I would say that, um, HRT in general at the right time might have benefits for skin and hair.

But the evidence isn't overwhelming, particularly we have no clinical trials for hair thinning at all. We do have, um, animal studies. showing the benefits of estrogen on hair growth, for example, but we don't have human trials in women where we have a million women or even a thousand women, put them on HRT and monitor hair thinning over time.

We don't have that. We have a bit of research on skin and as by the looks of it, HRT, particularly estrogen might be, is overall probably more beneficial for skin than not, but it is not indicated for that, for that. problem. But if you do have menopausal symptoms and they're severe enough for you to want to do something about it, and you also experience a little bit of hair thinning and that bothers you, if you have other reasons to go on HRT, as a little side effect, you may find that HRT will stop.

The hair shedding will stop the hair thinning as a little, little benefit on the side. But as I said, clinically, you can't go and see a doctor if you've got no other symptoms other than the hair thinning and say, I want HRT. I would like to go on HRT because of my hair and wrinkles. That's not a thing.

And I, I, it's perfectly acceptable that the doctor would say, well, if you've in the absence of any other symptoms, I'm sorry, but it's not indicated for that. Um, I have a lot of women who did start HRT for different reasons and they would come back Um, you know, six months later and say my nails are better.

My skin is better. My hair is better, but that's a little side bonus. Now, if you don't want to go on HRT and even HRT does not treat all forms of hair thinning, you may want to see a consultant dermatologist, or you can also buy over the counter. The most evidence based treatment is Minoxidil. Minoxidil is, um, either foam or lotion that you have to massage into your, your scalp, which extends hair growth phases and prevents.

it will only work as long treatment. If you stop th see some hair shedding, b be left with a little bit started off before. Other something that targets th for many women detrimental. So, uh, that would be something called spironolactone, which is a tablet, which, which, um, targets an enzyme in the hair follicles.

It's a diuretic, but it also is something what we call anti antigenic. So it targets, uh, the effect of testosterone in the hair follicle directly. And they are very good. There's very good evidence that, for example, women with PCOS who have high levels of testosterone and spironolactone can stop the, uh, loss on the, on the head.

So that's a tablet that might be a good treatment, um, minoxidil. And that's from your doctor, I presume? You have to get that on prescription. That tablet's from your doctor's prescription? Yes, that's something that, uh, you could get from your doctor. And the other treatments are Um, topical treatments that you massage in or apply to the scalp, which contain a combination of minoxidil with antiandrogenic drugs like finasteride, dusteride.

These all stop the effects of, um, of testosterone on the hair follicles. It's not testosterone, it's testosterone. So it's another type of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone. And that is particularly, I would say, harmful to the hair follicle. It shrinks it. It makes it smaller. It leads to a finer, thinner hair growing until it finally kills off the follicle.

So in order to prevent the effects of the dihydrotestosterone, you would have to use a combination of minoxidil with these kinds of anti angiogenic drugs, which you can get from, from dermatologists. But the minoxidil itself, you can buy over the counter without the other ones. This is the most evident case.

Okay. Okay. I must look at that because I haven't come across it here. There's another one here, but I don't know if it maybe has that ingredient, but I'll check that out and put it in the show notes. Just so we're talking there about hair thinning. Now let's go to the other side. What about the chin hairs?

What about the hair where you don't want it to grow? Unfortunately, again, this is also related to testosterone or androgens, in particular dihydrotestosterone. So as we get older, we have a, we, younger women have a lot of testosterone and in, during puberty, when it's, when it increases, what we see as a result of testosterone young girls They get hair growth in their underarms and their pubic hair.

But also one of the effects of testosterone is an increase in oil production. So they may get acne. That's the, that's part of the puberty. And then testosterone sort of levels out and the acne gets treated. The skin, it costs just to the high levels of testosterone and usually it settles. And then we go, we hopefully have quite good skin in our twenties and thirties.

And then testosterone doesn't really decline. So it declines around age 25 and then it's fairly stable and then actually increases again in our 70s. So this testosterone, as we get older, also gets increasingly converted through an enzyme into this dihydrotestosterone, which is harmful. It causes hair loss and scalp follicles, but hair growth.

in other areas of the body, including the chin. The chin is very dense with, has a lot of, um, um, dystosterone or androgen receptors. So the receptors are the, it's like key in a lock where the hormones, Um, have an impact on the skin. They interact with these receptors and these receptors, um, then increase hair growth in areas where you don't want it.

So you're losing hair on the top and you're growing the hair on the chin. Um, but you're also losing your pubic hair sadly. So the certain areas of the body have responded differently over time to these hormones. And One area that is particularly, um, sensitive is the lower chin and the neck area. So you may find that you get nodules.

You might get a cystic acne a little bit, you know, more, more nodules here. You may get spots on the chin, but you also may get whiskers, you know. Um, so what can you do about that? The, we used to have a cream called Vanika, which was on prescription. You could apply to the lower face and it would, uh, stop the hair growth and cause the hair to fall out.

Um, but the, the most effective treatment for this area, if it's severe is probably laser treatment. So if you can't be bothered to pluck or to shave and you really fed up. Laser treatment is a, is a definitive treatment because you need several sessions though. You need to let, let the hair grow. And there are now lasers that can treat, um, hair growth on dark skin because previously we could only use laser.

on where you had light skin with dark hair, you know, so the women who had light hair on light skin or dark hair on dark skin were kind of stuck. But now we have very clever lasers who can treat pretty much anyone's hair growth in this area. So laser treatment, if you can afford it would be the definitive answer.

You have to have top obsessions ever so often. And then a question I get all the time is, look, I've just plucked out this hair. I pulled it out with a pair of tweezers. And then I wake up the next morning and there's another one, how can that be? Now the reason for that is that we have thousands and millions, millions of hair follicles growing there and normally they're invisible, they're called vellus hair, vellus hair, very fine peach fuzz, which is normally not visible to the naked eye.

They grow on our nose, they grow everywhere on our skin. When we have higher levels of dihydrotestosterone as we get older, this, these fine peach fuzz hairs convert into what we call terminal hair. Terminal hair are the hairs that we can see, the thick, coarse, visible hair. So because we have millions of these hairs growing, you might have just pulled out one and then the next morning, a new hair that you hadn't seen before has now grown a little more and that becomes visible and it's an never ending game.

You can't win this. So you it is frustrating. If you only have a few, it's worth plucking them. It's worth pulling them out, but you will never win. You will always get the odd one coming through and is you have to pull out the same hair several times over to damage the hair follicle to the extent that the new hair won't grow.

But because we have so many of these fine hairs growing that could turn into a terminal hair, you cannot win that. You just either keep plucking, or you have laser treatment, um, if it bothers you, or just accept them, shave them, or accept them. Yeah. The only thing about, I mean, I'm a plucker, I will admit, those chin hairs, I just pluck them.

Yes. The only thing about shaving, shaving them, if you do any bit of shaving, Won't they come back stronger? No, no, that's a myth. You have to imagine hair is dead tissue. Hair is dead, right? It's dead. If you cut it, it doesn't hurt. So it's dead tissue. How should the hair follicle underneath know that your hair was cut?

It doesn't. It's a complete myth. What, what happens is when you shave the hair is optically, you create a, the hair, the tip of the hair is normally sharp and sort of thin and When you shave it, you create a straight surface. So the hair looks thicker because you create optically a different surface to what it would be like when you, if you left it to grow.

It is an absolute myth that if you shave anything, that the hair will grow thicker. It doesn't happen. The same as any, anyone who, who, um, who says that, Whatever treatment you put on will affect your, your oil production in the skin. Medical treatments like tretinoin can do that. It can reduce oil production.

But the, the oil gland in the skin will just keep reducing the same amount of oil as it did before. It doesn't know what happens on the surface. It doesn't interact with the surface. It just keeps reducing oil. And if you wipe it off, you have less oil, but it will not affect the actual production in the, in the sebum, in the sebaceous gland.

So no, don't worry. You can shave your hair, but I think I agree with you. Shaving is optically not the best solution because it doesn't treat the problem. It just optically gives you a little bit of respite for a day, but if it's severe, It will. You have to do it time and time again. And some women do have like stubbles, you know, quite quickly within.

Yeah. Yeah. These, these hairs grow very quickly. So shaving may not be the ultimate solution. Plucking them out is actually better. The one thing about plucking just, I have to tell you is don't pluck your eyebrows. A lot of women, do you remember in the, in the nineties, like women had plucked their eyebrows, over plucked them.

And they ended up with no eyebrows. Correct, because if you pluck hair too much, eventually, if you keep plucking the same hair, you will get something called traction alopecia. So, you will damage the hair follicle to an extent that new hair will not grow out. So, I recommend if you have hair, eyebrows, that you want to, to trim or you want to shave, get those little, tiny little sh uh, shaving, raising razors devices.

Um, they're like, they're, they're on a, on a little, um, so they're tiny little micro razor blades and you can, you can shave the excess hair off and eyebrows don't, don't grow that quickly. So you can just trim them without plucking them. Some women I see pluck their gray hairs. on the scalp. I would not recommend that you do that.

Not only again, is it a losing game because you'll get more and more gray hair with time anyway, but if you keep plucking hair on the scalp and if you keep plucking the same hair, you will damage the hair follicle over time. And there will be no more hair growing. And we see that in women who Who have this very tight ponytails, you know, who, who have very tight hairstyles with braids or very tight ponytails that because they're pulling on the hair follicles so much that The tension, the traction will damage the hair follicle over time, and then the, the, the forehead becomes wider, larger and larger, and that is irreversible.

So once you've, and this happens with eyebrows as well, once you've over plucked eyebrows or any other areas, um, Intentionally, the hair follicle may get damaged. Now, this is obviously something that you want on the chin, but sadly, we've got so many hairs grow that on the chin that you will not win that game.

But the eyebrows have limited hair follicles, you know, you will run over them, they're not, Fashion changes, you know, sometimes the eyebrows are thicker and sometimes they're thinner. In the 1920s they were super thin, but fashion changes and you may not want to pluck them in your 20s in case you want a few eyebrows left in your 50s.

And what about waxing your eyebrows? That's the same as plucking, you just pull them out by the root on the bulb. Wow, okay. And shaving, is shaving the same? I think threading is the same. You just pull them out, don't you? It's just a way of pulling them out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it is so true, isn't it?

Because I think eyebrows just define a face. They do. So it is important to really look after them, right? Thanks so much for chatting. And, uh, I'll put all your handles as well. So people can follow you on social media as well. Thanks so much. I hope you enjoyed that chat with the lovely Mandy and there's many takeaways from that conversation.

So hopefully you have a pen available and you could grab some notes. You can see all the details, how you can get Mandy's book and how you can connect with her on social media in the show notes and also remember the big metaphor of success on what is happening. On the 19th of October this year, we will be delving into the world of skin care as well.