Anxiety in Menopause

Today on the Menopause Uprising Podcast I am talking to Deirdre Culbert. Deirdre is a qualified Psychotherapist and Counsellor. We talk about anxiety in Menopause and proven strategies that will help. Deirdre will be one of the speakers at the 5th Menopause Success Summit! To learn more click HERE

To learn more about Deirdre click HERE

Transcript -Automatically Generated

Anxiety. It's one of the biggest words we hear in sentences when we talk about menopause. It's probably up there with brain fog and I think, Deirdre, when we look at anxiety, it's such a big word. A loaded word. And I think for anyone at any stage in life, not just in menopause, it can mean many different things.

But when you work with people who, you know, are anxious and different forms of anxiety, You know, how do you look at it in terms of it's so big? Yeah, I suppose the first thing I would say about it, Catherine, is to see it as an emotion. You know, it's one of the many emotions we can feel at that time.

particular phase in life, but throughout life, um, you know, anxiety is one of our emotions and understanding what emotions are and how they show up for us, I, I suppose, is a really important, um, thing that we can do to help us manage it better. So, you know, we have anxiety, we fears, we have sadness, we have joy, um, and, You know, we have anger and we've all sorts of flavors of those and different words that come to mind, you know, anger, you can go frustration or irritability.

So there, you know, almost if you think of them on a scale between zero and ten, you know, emotions can have such range, as you say, you know, we can be, doing okay in life and anxiety might be there humming in the background in our 20s and 30s at a three or a four and all of a sudden when we're in menopause it's like an eight or a nine and it's like blaring at us and, and thinking and feeling and, uh, having other emotions actually can get quite blocked out by anxiety.

It can become an overriding emotion and I suppose that's When, in menopause, when that happens, it's time to maybe take a step back and have a look at it and see what's going on for the individual. And when it does become, like, an overriding emotion, like, how do you know that? How do you know, like, what, what, what are you looking out for?

So I suppose, Catherine, What comes to mind when you say that is I've been to a number of your menopause success sonomas and I'm really looking forward to the next one. And I remember one of the speakers talking about symptoms being mild, moderate or severe. And again, I suppose that kind of, approach if you think about your, your own anxiety or your own emotional responses to situations is if you can take a step back and go, is my response kind of moderate?

Or you know, is it mild? You know, do I feel like, okay, for what went on, that was okay. Or do I feel like when I take a step back, that was way too much, that was out of kilter. I know that the children the husband just drives me mad. But Okay, maybe I lost it a little bit more than I should have, or, you know, I have an upcoming event, um, you know, be planning for holidays or a wedding or, you know, some sort of transition in life and that it becomes all consuming and it's hard to think about anything else.

And it's hard to put it into perspective to say, okay, yes, it's, it's something to have concern about. But I can handle it or I can manage it. If you find that you're thinking about it is excessive or it's taking over your thoughts, then you're in that kind of more moderate to severe category, maybe, you know, a 7, 8, 9, 10 sense of anxiety.

And I suppose that's when I would be saying, you know, how do you Manage and, and figure out ways of managing and suiting yourself, maybe internally or externally, or seeking help. That's the time to maybe look at that sort of thing. And, and just when you mentioned their, their reaction, it's disproportionate, right?

Yeah. Really reminded me, I was talking to a woman, And she was sharing with me how when they were going on family holidays She said she was over preparing. She said she was getting them to the airport like maybe 4 or 5 hours before they needed to be there. Because it was like, She had started to become more anxious about it.

And she, she said, that's where she really realized, listen, this isn't, there's something not right here because, but then it wasn't just impacting her. It was impacting her whole family because she was kind of, you know, getting them up hours earlier or whatever to be at the airport hours earlier when there was no need to be.

And I think, I think sometimes we, you can, particularly when you're in the throes and many other symptoms of. menopause, you can like kind of lose sight of what's normal, can't you? You know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose what's normal for each person is going to vary, you know, so I would say our emotions and our responses to what is happening to us kind of come from three different streams.

One is our DNA. you know, how we're born and how, how we're made up of and the personality traits, kind of like our face and our, our, our mannerisms that we, we inherit from our mom, dad, our grandparents, you know, people who say, Oh, you, you hold your hands the very same as your auntie Mary or whatever it is.

Same is true of our emotional responses. There's definitely, um, you know, a DNA Part to it. The second part to how our emotions is, is our early lives. And again, this is very much borne out in research that patterns we lay down and experiences we have in early life carry through in later life. And sometimes we recognize that there's Uh, good for us.

And sometimes we recognize they're not and we evolve. So it's not that they're hardcore by what we experience in our life, but they certainly make a difference. I'm going to take, for example, our accents, you know, you and I are from the great county of Kilkenny and, you know, we have a lovely Kilkenny accent and dialect.

And, you know, if we were born in France, we would have a different language and accent. So, you know, again, to show that the environment that you're in, in those early stages is very informative. It's quite hard to break your accent. You know, you can, but you have to be very intentional about it. You have to put practice into it.

You know, actors and actresses do this. You know, if you want to change something that is a pattern of yours, it does take focus and effort and attention. And then I would say the third thing is our current environment. And that current environment is the people around us, where we live, how we are in it, whether we're working or not working, children or not children, and our chemical and biological makeup in that, at that period in life, whether we're well or not, you know, if you've chronic pain, your psychological, um, uh, way you are at that time will be different.

And if your hormones are changing through, through job training. drops in oestrogen. Again, that's an environmental change. Yes, it's within and not external, but it's still something that we now know affects, uh, people's emotional state during menopause. So, all of those factors are, uh, influences, and I suppose understanding ourselves and where we might have triggers is complex because we are human and it is complex, but also When you spend time paying attention to it and maybe work with somebody through it, it's it is Uh, uh, easy to see what might need to change and how you might go about it.

Hmm. Hmm. And I think it's, it's, it's like having that piece of awareness, isn't it? And sometimes, you know, it's like, you know, I talk a lot about the sandwich years and that's menopause. We're all juggling loads of things. And when you're in the middle of doing that, it's kind of like, okay, well, I don't have time to stop here and think about why am I anxious or why am I feeling cross or irritable or whatever.

But there's great benefit in that though, isn't there? There is. And, and what I would say to people is first to start noticing what's happening in your body. Because a lot of the time we stay up in our head and we don't notice the icky stomach, you know, the butterflies in the stomach, that sense of dread, the sense of, uh, you know, something going wrong, but we have it in our core, but we try and prevent that happening by thinking through, like your friend going to the airport.

We're so over prepared that we're trying to calm down these sensations that are in our body or the tightness in the chest, you know, that, oh, things might go wrong, you know, and we feel it here, but we try to ignore it. So we go up into our head. So anxiety is very head based. a lot of thinking with it, but when we can slow down and actually feel it and maybe take a breath and maybe go, okay, you know, airports are tricky, but you know, we're not there yet.

We're still at home. So it right here in this moment, I can look after myself. I can, I can plan. I can get out a piece of paper and say, what do we need to do? What's the work back time and what's reasonable for everybody? So that we are more calm and within our body responding to the situation or the scenario, rather than just in our heads and being overly trying to solve it through just thinking.

That's, I mean, I, I'd say I probably once a day, if not more. I do have to just, okay, just remind myself, I'm now, I'm here now, and I can sometimes, I can look at my to do list and I can think, oh, mother of God, where am I starting? But it's that, it's just stopping and, you know, the sun is shining, it's just, even for me, it's like sitting out in the garden for a minute, I'm here, I'm now.

Tackling things, you know, one at a time and trying to be in the moment. In a way, it sounds so simple, but I think you and I both know how profound of a change that can trigger in your body and in how you're feeling, right? Absolutely. You know, one of the things that comes up with, uh, you know, some clients says, Oh, I get into bed at night and I lie down and I, and it all starts going through my head.

And the next thing I know it's two o'clock in the morning. And I would say, but you need to remind yourself you're in your bed. You know, right here, right now, I can't do anything about what's going to come up tomorrow. You know, maybe people are, you know, social anxiety or fearful of the world or fearful of the next conversation they're going to have with somebody and it's to say, okay, right here, right now, I'm in my house, my front door is closed and I'm safe.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it's really that, you know, that sort of habit of bringing yourself into the present moment going, okay, right here, right now, what can I do? So can I plan? Can I book a taxi? You know, can I book a taxi at the foreign end when I get to Italy? Um, and you say, okay, I can do that. I can make a reservation.

What if the taxi drivers out there are dodgy? And you go, okay, well, I can't do anything about that now. You know, what if they. Take me away and something happens and you go, I have, you have to then learn to trust your judgment in the moment that if something doesn't feel right, you'd say, No, thanks. I'll get somebody else or whatever it is, but that often.

We cope much better in the moment than we perceive we will. Hmm, yeah. Even when things go wrong, we actually act in the moment much better than we anticipate we will from a distance. So the catastrophizing is to try and keep us safe, but the trick is to trust ourselves that actually we will keep safe and we will be safe.

And sometimes our brain, our brain wants to trick us, doesn't it? Our brain sends us down that tunnel of catastrophizing that the worst will happen. And I think often we kind of think, okay, well, our brain is amazing. So our brain must be telling us the truth. But in actual fact, that's not always the case.

No, that's not the case. You know, again, this would be very much borne out through, uh, psychology research is that every thought we have is not a fact. And particularly when it comes to other people, every thought we have is not a fact. They're all this. They were out to get me. They were all blaming others for things or anticipating that others are doing things to us.

And actually, unless you go and directly ask the person, you don't know you're making assumptions, but your mind is trying to protect you. from the assault of somebody giving out to you verbally, you know, from the, you know, threat of others. Well, if I think they're dangerous and I don't go near them, then I can socially isolate.

So it kind of keeps us small. It keeps us withdrawn, keeps us pulling back. So it's our mind trying to predict safety, but actually sometimes it's a perceived threat rather than a real threat. And in our body, A perceived threat will feel the exact same. Your heart rate will increase. You'll get ready for fight or flight, which is whichever your body will choose in that moment.

And the choice between fight or flight is, if we think that we can overcome something, like if we think we can overcome the tiger, because it's a cub, Then we will fight, and if we think we can't, we will either fight or freeze. Flight if we think we can run away from it, and then if we think we need to, uh, feign death, we will freeze.

So very fast, our brain has these, protective responses that get, that it chooses one of these things. There's no logical front cortex thinking in this. This is all very back of the head, uh, brainstem, uh, thinking that activates us into our safety, uh, spaces. So the, the fight could be giving out to our children and the flight will be running away from our husband.

You know, we know we won't win that argument. So we're out of the room and gone. Instead of maybe if we can be more calm, if we can trust ourselves, if we can trust them being in the moment and having a constructive conversation or finding the words to say, I don't feel great or I'm not doing good at the moment.

So it's about trying to regain our composure and take a breath and be present in our adult selves. rather than in our safety cells that might actually convey messages that aren't really what we need to convey at that time. Dee, there's a few really powerful things you've said there, right, that I just think are really important and if we can just go back, one thing is where you talk about, you know, the back of the brain and the reaction that's coming.

In terms of, you know, That reaction, so our body is primed and we don't really think about that reaction, right? Because it just happens, but just, can you just explain a little bit more in terms of where's that coming from? Are we talking about, is that coming from our hunter gatherer, the cave women, you know, from centuries past in survival mode?

Yeah, you know, so, you know, the, the knowledge and the understanding in neuroscience and how we are and who we are in the world has just exploded in the last 10 years. And it's wonderful. And it's constantly changing and getting updated, but you know, how I often talk to clients about this is, you know, we've our iPhone 13 and our Samson, I'm not sure what number they're on.

Our poor brain and the way our brain and body work. It's still on V1. There's been no upgrades, right? So we've a lot of the, the, the, the functionality in how our brainstem, you know, our amygdala and hypothalamus and our frontal cortex where our emotions and logic are stored are the same software as the caveman.

Yes, we know an awful lot more in the world and we process them differently, but the chemicals that they release, the way the body activates, you know, these were survival things and tribal things that helped us be and stay alive in the world. In, in, in, in the womb, the brainstem forms, and it's a very basic, uh, functionality, you know, it's on or off, the autonomic nervous system is activated or it's deactivated.

We're activated because of threat and danger, or we're deactivated to rest and digest. And actually that activation means that rush of blood away from the stomach. to the arms and legs, um, and get ourselves out of danger and then rest and digest, calm down, food goes in to nourish the body, breathing slows down and we're able to you know, go on about our daily lives.

And that's why the stomach is often an area that's activated, because the blood rushes away. So that feeling is happening because we're being activated in the moment. So, that's why slow breathing works. It's, it's saying, you're faking it, sort of, into saying, actually, if she's taking slow breaths, there must be no trash.

Therefore, it must be rest and digest time. So that's what that's happening there. The middle part of our brain is formed in, towards the end of, uh, towards the end of, I was going to say labour, oh my goodness, towards the end of pregnancy. It could be happening there too, and it can be shaped there actually.

But, you know, and in the early months is the amygdala and the hypothalamus, and in there is our alarm system for safety. And, uh, and our memories and why that's there in, in early childhood is as humans, we cannot survive without a parent, right? We're one of the animal species that doesn't get up and pick up a glass of milk and go, right, lads, we're, we're good to go.

If we don't have another human to take care of us, to meet our needs. we can't survive. So we're a very tribal, uh, species. And so we cry when we need. We cry when we're wet. We cry when we're hungry. We cry when we're in pain. So the amygdala helps this alarm system. But of course, it goes on through life being the piece that tells us when there's danger and when there's threat.

And part of it is social. So if we think we're going to be excluded from the tribe, Then we react in certain ways where we go, okay, I'm afraid that these people are going to give out to me. So then we avoid them, or we're insecure and we try and hold on to people and please people to stay with them. So we overly accommodate others, we ignore our own needs, we overly accommodate others in order to stay in the tribe.

That's like people pleasing, right? Yes, yes, yeah. Later in life, in the first 18 months, the right brain develops, and in there we have a lot more of our emotional, our creative right brain, and our connection with people grows in there. And then our left brain, which is really language and speech, only comes at 18, you know, 14, 15 months, maybe 18 months to three years, you know.

So words like, you know, fear or anxiety don't exist in our vocabulary when we're young. when we're an infant, but yet we are actually able to experience them. Yeah. But they're pre verbal. So this is how that early piece informs us, but also as we go through life, all these pieces still become activated and, um, because the brain develops and yet the functionality is the same as it is.

And maybe when we're 18 months to three years old, I think that's, yeah, that's the analogy of the phone and version one. I mean, that's just fantastic because you know, it just, that makes it very accessible. I think to understand, and I think that's one thing that I always kind of say to women is it's so important to understand and to have compassion for yourself in terms of understand how you're reacting.

You know, it is, in a way, it's a survival safety mechanism that's being kicked in. And at the same time, you've got to bring in the fact that, if this hormonal rollercoaster is also happening, so it means that, you know, after I, so many times women will say, you know, like you said earlier, it's a disproportionate response, but then they'll always say, I feel so bad after it.

They feel guilty after the rage of frustration. But I think if you can, you know, go back, bring that awareness and even just think, hey, I'm operating on version one, you know, I'm in that survival mode, you know, straight away, there's huge relief in that. Yeah, and one thing you're highlighting Catherine there that is that negative inner critic voice or inner dialogue You know, that's so detrimental to many women where they get in their own heads and think, you know I should be this and I should be that and I should be coping better and I should be you know Wonder Woman out here.

Yeah. Yeah, and And, uh, or, you know, I don't look the way everybody else does. I don't look the way I used to look. I don't have the energy, this negativity towards the self. It actually inflames anxiety, really inflames it. You not only have the overwhelming scenarios, you have the chemical imbalance, but you also then have this negative voice that's saying you're not good enough.

You're not doing it well enough. Everybody else is doing it better than you or everyone else looks better than you. You know, your sense of taste in clothes has changed and all of a sudden you don't know how to dress because you're in your fifties and you're going, well, I can't wear what I wore when I was 30.

And the wardrobe hasn't updated much since, you know, and again, you're going on now I look a heap. And so, you know, again, it's that negative self image. belief that, that keeps piling in with all of these thoughts. And actually, if we can have compassion, go, well, how would you know what to wear? It's the first time you've been in your 50s, you know, or, you know, yes, this is tricky.

And yeah, I, I overreacted, but you know what? I'm doing my best at this time. And what was that about? There's a real reverse psychology to the compassion, that the more compassionate, the harder you are on yourself, the more you'll increase your anxiety. Gentler and more compassionate and more understanding you are of yourself, the less Uh, intensity there will be to your anxiety.

So it's actually, you know, if you're using the small child in a supermarket analogy, the more you shout at the child and tell them to stop crying, the more they're going to roar. And that's like your self negative thought. The more you give out to yourself for not being what you should be. the more the anxiety is going to heighten.

The more you let that child have its moment, let it go through whatever cycle of emotional states it's in, and then say, what's going on? What is it that you need? Why are you feeling this way? Same to ourselves as adults. What's going on for me right now? What's activating me and where might that be coming from?

What can I do for myself that would make me feel better in this moment? The less harsh we are and the more caring and understanding that this whole piece is complex, then the more able we will be to bring down the anxiety, because it will feel less threatening, even from our own head. And that's a vital piece in coming, in sorting out anxiety.

Vital piece is that self compassion and reducing the negative self taught. What about the majority of women, right, are juggling 50 things when this is happening? So what about you're in work, you're really busy, you're managing your menopause symptoms, and you're trying to get that awareness in. Any practical tips in terms of you know, how you can do that.

I, I, I think, I think with women in this age category from, you know, early forties onwards is there's a, we know life is changing and transitioning and there's a lot going on, you know, parents getting elderly and children moving to, you know, into teens and, and beyond. And so there is a little bit of taking stock.

Where am I at? Because I sometimes what's behind all of that. Catherine is meaning and purpose. And there's so many things going on that, that the individual finds it hard to know, well, what about me in all of this? Is this for everyone else? It's the, where's this treadmill going? And now I'm feeling burnt out while I'm on it.

And so that's sort of, you know, Demand of life and being able to take a step back and get a bit of perspective going, you know, am I happy to be in this career for the next 20 years till I'm 65 or do I need to do something else or what intensity does it need to be at or how are all these other places in my life working and where do I need support and where do I need to let go of some things?

You know, We all only have 24 hours in the day. No one has more, no one has less. And it is about how do you divide that pie? You know, I often use a pie chart in terms of thinking about our emotions during a day. Happy, sadness, fear, anger, anxiety. What proportion of it are you spending in one place? And is that okay for you?

You look at your day, what can you start doing? How What can you stop doing? There is no magic bullet, but there is maybe that need to. Take a step back and evaluate where you are and make sure that that has meaning and purpose for you at that point. Mm, mm. I think it's just, it's, it's, it's prioritizing yourself, isn't it?

And it is just saying, okay, you know, I'm going to take two minutes now. I'm going to go to the restroom. I'm going to sit in my office, sit in my car, wherever. And I'm going to just try and just bring awareness to this. And yes, it might be uncomfortable, but if you start, that's one thing that I started doing a couple of years ago, and the power in it, oh my Lord, just unbelievable.

And I think I have found I understand myself so much more now than I would have done maybe five, ten years ago because I've really concentrated. When those, those uncomfortable moments happen, which we all have, just to try and sit with it and just understand, okay, what's going on here for me. What's being triggered.

Yeah. You know, the things I would recommend to clients are where they find their minds are very active and they're buzzing all the time and they're trying to juggle too many things is five slow, deep breaths in through the nose and out through the mouth. And as you're breathing in, think about I'm breathing in the oxygen, the, you know, the fresh air, the green grass, the goodness.

You're breathing in the goodness. And when you're breathing out, you're letting go, you're, you know, the stress, the strain, the anxiety, the toxic body, whatever it is that's, you know, just, and if you want to grunt, do that, you know, but you can do this in the car. at the traffic lights or, you know, uh, go into the bathroom in the workplace or wherever you can find, I would say maybe three minutes is all it takes.

And I, and I, if you can, not when you're driving, obviously, but count it on your fingers, you know, one, In, two, three. Four, hold, and out, two, three, four, five, and then hold your second finger, because the counting and the pinching of your fingers takes you out of the thoughts. It takes you out of what's for the dinner, and what time will I have it at, and who's coming in, and da da da da da da, and I need to ring my mother, and then, and I need to get a birthday present for whoever.

If you're counting. And breathing. You're in the moment with your breath. You're allowing it happening in your body and you're slowing your mind down to concentrate on just the breath and then lifting your diaphragm. It's got to go in deep. It's got to get down to the stomach. So we're saying Oh, we're in rest and digest here so that calmness can come with it.

It needs to be five. I've noticed four. Four, you can start to feel it changing and it has to be five. If you lose count of the five during it, go back to one. So there is a little bit of just the rhythm of it, the counting of it is changing the pattern in your brain. And the breath is sending a signal that this is rest and digest.

The other thing for fast minds are, you know, overthinking would be the guided meditation. So you find these free on YouTube. Most of the apps like cam or insight timer, there's numerous others have a certain amount of them free for a while, but 10 minutes of doing that in the morning. If you did that 10 minutes, five days a week for 21 days, I.

people would be astounded at how their brain function would change. It actually just becomes a little quieter. The pace of it becomes slower. So not that you don't think smartly, but the speed at which it races things kind of settles. It's phenomenal. I've done it a couple of times. I had to do it when I was studying at one point and to feel the difference at the end of, of Of 21 days of how your mind is.

And it's like going to the gym. You have to be intentional about these things. If you want to bring about change in your anxiety, you have to have a little bit of a plan, a little bit of a goal, but set out. This is what I want to achieve. I want to slow down how I think. How I'm spinning and you have to then be in the present moment and catch some of these things or bring them in as a practice in the morning so that then when you're overwhelmed during the day.

It's become a familiar thing to lean into. It's going to be very hard to lean into something new when you're in anxiety if you never do it outside of it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. You've got to kind of have it there as a tool. You go, Oh, I must pick that up. And then your attitude towards yourself, that openness and compassion and curiosity about why am I activated right now?

What is it about anxiety? Yeah. That it's coming up for me in this moment. One other interesting thing I might, uh, say to, to, to you. Have you seen the new Inside Out movie? Not yet. I know one of my sons actually is mad to see it. So I must, uh, it's probably Disney now at this stage. But I did see the first one and I loved it.

I absolutely loved it. Yeah, I, I, I went to see it recently and I would encourage any of you who haven't seen it as adults, go by, go with your friends. Like it, there's so much in it. It's not a kid's animation movie as none of the Disney ones are, there's always meaning in them, but watch for the character that's anxiety.

Okay. You know, it's, I don't want to give the plot away, but you know, it comes in and this is a fairly central role, but I'm just going to say, notice how it impacts the other emotion. Okay. It sort of hijacks a little and that happens to us all. It's hard. It's almost, you know, for ourselves, it's almost like if I'm anxious, then I can't notice my anger or my fears.

And I don't take time. I just see this blur and this whizzing, but I can't actually really connect with the deeper emotions that are going on for me. And that's a big part of what happens in menopause, I think, because the stage women are at in life. The sandwich years and your, your, um, little shot on that on social media the other day with all the sliced pans was brilliant, you know, it's, it's, it's what, you know, what am I about and what am I doing and why does any of this matter and what's bothering me from what has happened in the past and can I make peace with that?

Or why is it active right now? So it's the making, figuring out our past and figuring out how we are in the present and where we're going in the future and containing the anxiety around that so that we're, we know that we are enough and that we can figure our way through it. I think that's really powerful that, that we are enough because I think a lot of times that's a struggle.

In terms of, you know, because like you said earlier, it's like you nearly just pressure that you need to be Superwoman, Wonder Woman, but it's actually understanding that you are enough. And I think, I think, and you know me, that I'm very positive about menopause, but I think that The huge opportunities that come with the menopause year is the fact that we are being pushed, we are being encouraged to look.

I always kind of say it's like we're looking in the mirror, who am I, where am I at? What am I at? What am I doing? And that can be very uncomfortable because it's shifting sands. Everything is changing and we're being asked to kind of. Do a very deep and profound check in with ourselves and I think for some of us that can be very uncomfortable and There can also be the resistance to doing it and I think you know, I think there's a saying there You know, if you resist, I don't know it's something like that, isn't it?

You know, if you resist too much, it'll still persist and I think menopause to me You know aside from the future proofing aspects of menopause I think the spotlight it puts on our needs to have a check in and to understand well, well, where am I going? Am I happy? Am I content with my life? And I think happy is a very loaded word, but I could talk for an hour on that one.

But it's more about like, am I content with where I'm at in my life right now? And I think that's where, um, I just think that's where, you know, menopause when, if we can, If we're willing to take that invitation, probably a strong word, um, but it's like that is a great opportunity and I know certainly from my own perspective, I've probably learned more about myself in the last five to eight years, um, than I've done previously.

And that's where we get into the whole, you know, the whole thought and thinking about the wisdom of menopause. Yeah. I, I, I really agree with everything you said there, Katrin, and, you know, I, uh, you know, one of my, depending on the presentation, but one of the ways I work with people in therapy. I feel is to be that, hold up that mirror, you know, and you know, you go into a changing room and you look at the different angles, side and this side and that side.

And, and, and that's what I'm trying to do is reflect back to people, you know, where they're being hard on yourself, themselves. It's like, okay, but what about this? You know, what about this perspective of what you've been through? Can you see yourself in a different light or, you know, Uh, you know, look at how much you're carrying.

How would you think if a friend was carrying that? What would you say to them? You know, or, um, you know, this is your environment. This is, this is what's going on for you. Does this fit? Is this how you want it to be? This is your pie chart. You know, how much of it is invested in these places? Is that okay?

And it's by asking those questions and helping people to reflect on where they are, or maybe challenging gently or, you know, normalizing some of what, you know, actually nobody has it all together. No, nobody, nobody, not even, not even. Michelle Obama, Oprah, none of them. No, and they quite openly admit it, you know.

So it's, it's like, okay, you know, it's reflecting back to say, well, how, you know, where people's thinking of got a little distorted or a little, uh, one sided, you know, or, you know, one of the things with fear and, and anxiety is that when you're in, you know, Um, fight or flight mode, your, your vision narrows.

So instead of being able to see peripheral vision, you go, okay, there's a tiger in front of me. But your brain narrows too. It goes, will I run or stay? Will I climb that tree? Uh, or will I run behind that rock? It's not going to go, God, there's a beautiful view here and there's a nice sunset, but there's a tiger about to eat me.

So your creativity goes offline. Thinking about resources and options and choices goes offline. It's very much like a light switch, run or stay. So when we're in anxiety mode, we're not at our creative best coming up with solutions, coming up with problem solving. So I find that in therapy, that slowing down and saying, okay, but what else could be true?

Or if you rate this on a scale of one to 10, how likely is it to occur? And if it were to occur, how likely are you to be able to manage it? And actually, when people slow down, when they're breathing calmly, and when they're in a room with somebody who's supportive, And they suddenly go, Oh yeah, I can do that.

Oh yeah, no, I could choose this instead. So again, you know, that piece of taking time to step back, as you say, to maybe look at what they're doing through a new lens, to see life through a new lens, to see options through a new lens, to not feel as contained or as caught. You know, yes, I know it's hard for some people out there and it's very difficult.

But in some ways, looking at the choices of sitting into where you are with a greater sense of acceptance, maybe, in a content acceptance rather than a frustrated acceptance, with an acceptance of I'm choosing to sit in here rather than I'm resisting it and fighting us and annoyed about us, and looking at, you know And I know this frustrates people sometimes, but the privilege or the, the gratitude we might have for some of where we're at, even while some of it is difficult, you know, where is the glass somewhat half full and where is it not?

And, um, you know, I don't want to be too Pollyanna about this and then, oh, you know, it's all happy clappy, you know. It is a time when a lot of people can lose parents or other members of the family and there is sadness. Sometimes the anxiety is stopping us feeling the sadness and grief that we need to connect with, that we need to process, that we need to move through.

So keeping busy stops us from actually just being sad for what we've lost. And there are two very different emotions in our body. But if we can allow the sadness to take its space and acknowledge the love we've had for something we've lost, that's so much healthier than being busy avoiding ourselves because we're run ragged and not feeling the space we need for the tough emotions.

It's probably diverged a little bit in that piece there, Catra, but But it's, no, I mean the message is compassion. The message is, it's compassion, it's causing, and it's slowing down. And I think, If, if, you know, I loved what you were saying there earlier about the 10 minutes a day for 21 days, because I know myself at the moment you talked about the gym, but I am doing a new gym exercise just in my thighs.

I've committed to it for, you know, Two, three minutes a day for 21 days so I can see the difference. But it's, it's, it's minutes if you take it out of the bigger scheme of the 24 hour clock that are so pivotal in supporting, you know, our journey. It's at any stage of life, but I think especially when we're having challenges as we go through menopause.

And I think, thanks so much, um, for all the insight. And there's so many great takeaways from today. And I think the number one is I'm going off to watch, uh, Inside, Inside Out. I think there's the self care piece of You know, the downtime in the cinema, as well as, as well as it being sort of a semi educational psychological movie.

Well, I guess maybe the few treats, maybe the pistachio ice cream and the popcorn or whatever. There you go. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks so much, Dee. And I'll put all your details in the show notes so everyone can connect with you. Super. Thank you very much, Catherine. Thanks for having me.